1 Timothy 2:11-12
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
I continue to remain frustrated over this passage. Especially in today's culture, much in me cringes at the implications and statements found here. However, I am reminded that God is right and good, and I must find what is right and good here. Quickly taking a look at the word "teach". There are those who suggested that once we had the cannon, we no longer needed to place restrictions on who could "teach" since we could always check with the cannon. However, it seems that the primary issue is not the act of teaching, but rather the people doing the teaching. Not only that, but even at the time that Paul spoke this to Timothy, the preachers and teachers were still using a text, primarily that being the Old Testament. As I take a look at the words used in this passage, the question really comes down to this...can we interpret this passage as one that is primarily cultural, or is it universal? Time will tell...
Tuesday, February 20, 2007
Monday, February 19, 2007
The Journey Carries On...1 Timothy 2:11-15
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Well, there are more questions that I have coming out of this passage (and there will be more as we go). The first question deals with the idea of woman learning in "quietness". Does this mean physically quiet, or does it mean a spirit of "quietness" as opposed to rebellion etc. Certainly there is a sense where we all need to be "quiet" when it comes to dealing with those in authority over us. One of the highest virtues in scripture for everyone is submission to those in authority (check 1 Peter). However, the contrast within verse 12 in terms of "teaching" may indicate something more than simply not having a contentious spirit. Having said that, as I read, it has been brought to my attention (sounds British doesn't it?) that in those days the idea of learning was directly associated with the idea of one day teaching. That may or may not be the case here, however, even if it is the case, this passage may still be giving guidelines within which the teaching can take place. Other important questions will be, what does Paul mean by "permit", "authority over a man", and "she must be silent". The journey carries on...By the way Jer, I am doing some research into the idea that this seems to be an issue only for "Western Churches". Fair question.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Well, there are more questions that I have coming out of this passage (and there will be more as we go). The first question deals with the idea of woman learning in "quietness". Does this mean physically quiet, or does it mean a spirit of "quietness" as opposed to rebellion etc. Certainly there is a sense where we all need to be "quiet" when it comes to dealing with those in authority over us. One of the highest virtues in scripture for everyone is submission to those in authority (check 1 Peter). However, the contrast within verse 12 in terms of "teaching" may indicate something more than simply not having a contentious spirit. Having said that, as I read, it has been brought to my attention (sounds British doesn't it?) that in those days the idea of learning was directly associated with the idea of one day teaching. That may or may not be the case here, however, even if it is the case, this passage may still be giving guidelines within which the teaching can take place. Other important questions will be, what does Paul mean by "permit", "authority over a man", and "she must be silent". The journey carries on...By the way Jer, I am doing some research into the idea that this seems to be an issue only for "Western Churches". Fair question.
Friday, February 16, 2007
Stuck in a Moment...for awhile 1 Timothy 2:11-15
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
OK, here's the deal. Dudes, I am sorry for having taken such a long time off. My excuse (not that you care), I started training for a triathlon and kind of got my priorities out of whack. This obviously needs to change...now is the time!!! (I feel like it's January 1st all over again). Here is my second deal, I think I'm going to plant on this passage for awhile. Personally, I don't like it and I try and avoid it. I have opinions, but I don't think they are very educated, and fairly one sided. So, I'm going to try and come at it from both sides (and more if there are). I will blog the journey but I suspect I will be here for a week or so. You may get bored, I understand, but I need to get some kind of a fix on it...so here goes!!!!!
Here are some preliminary questions...
1. what does quietness and full submission mean? Does it actually mean quietness or "silence" as in verse 12 or does it have the sense of being respectful?
2. what does it mean to "teach" or have "authority" over a man?
3. Is this just for in the church or other settings as well?
4. Is the foundation for these exhortations cultural or does 13 and 14 make it universal because it seems to go back to creation?
5. What is up with verse 15???????
Let me start by saying that 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 makes it plain that women and men alike have been given spiritual gifts and 1 Peter 4:10 makes it plain that we are to use these to bless each other. The question is not does everyone have them, the question is how is everyone to use them? Also, 1 Timothy 3:15 makes it pretty clear that Paul's instructions to Timothy are focused on how the institutional church should function...and it seems to me that this passage is speaking specifically on what happens within the church in that sense (I could be wrong...I could be wrong on a lot of things).
While I think that much of this passage can be looked at as oppressive through cultural eyes, one thing of particular note is the reality that Paul wants women to learn...verse 11...in those days, not many people cared if women learned, or perhaps even wanted women to learn. This in and of itself is a fairly big deal. However, the emphasis of the passage is not on whether they should learn or not, but on how they should learn. This is where it gets scary!!!!!!! (by the way, my points of this passage being scary and one I don't like is fairly culturally driven. God is good and so are His ways, even if I don't understand them. I should not be scared of what will come from this study, I should be excited...but that is not always my reality). Until tomorrow!!!!!
I'm out!
Sid
Thursday, February 8, 2007
1 Timothy 2:8-10 Get Focused
1 Timothy 2:8-10
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
It seems to me that Timothy was having some issues in his church in terms of what was going on during the worship service...He had already talked of the need for prayer for other leaders, and then he seems to get specific. Apparently the men were fighting, and the woman were trying to draw inappropriate attention to themselves.
We are sinful people who make up the church. As sinful people, there is a good chance that there will be times when we act sinful, when we fight with each other, especially over insignificant issues. Can you imagine, if when things got heated, or disagreements arose (which they will), if we just stopped and prayed...together, seeking God's wisdom in the dispute? From a practical position, it never hurst to create a little space, from a spiritual (no less practical) position, it never hurst to set aside our agenda and seek God's. This could be powerful.
As for how we dress, and as for our motives in worship. It is impossible to both draw attention to God (worship) and draw attention to ourselves (also worship, just with a different focus). True worship is all about God. In this context, the main issue was dress, in my context, how about "looking spiritual", or sounding spiritual, etc. etc. Of course the primary concern is the heart, where it is focused. It is amazing to me how people can respond almost identically physically, and yet there is such a difference of focus...tough to hide. I need to be reminded of focus over and over again.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
It seems to me that Timothy was having some issues in his church in terms of what was going on during the worship service...He had already talked of the need for prayer for other leaders, and then he seems to get specific. Apparently the men were fighting, and the woman were trying to draw inappropriate attention to themselves.
We are sinful people who make up the church. As sinful people, there is a good chance that there will be times when we act sinful, when we fight with each other, especially over insignificant issues. Can you imagine, if when things got heated, or disagreements arose (which they will), if we just stopped and prayed...together, seeking God's wisdom in the dispute? From a practical position, it never hurst to create a little space, from a spiritual (no less practical) position, it never hurst to set aside our agenda and seek God's. This could be powerful.
As for how we dress, and as for our motives in worship. It is impossible to both draw attention to God (worship) and draw attention to ourselves (also worship, just with a different focus). True worship is all about God. In this context, the main issue was dress, in my context, how about "looking spiritual", or sounding spiritual, etc. etc. Of course the primary concern is the heart, where it is focused. It is amazing to me how people can respond almost identically physically, and yet there is such a difference of focus...tough to hide. I need to be reminded of focus over and over again.
Tuesday, February 6, 2007
1 Timothy 2: 1-7 Let's Pray
1Ti 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers,a intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority,b that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godlinessc and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleasesd God our Savior,e 4 who wantsf all meng to be savedh and to come to a knowledge of the truth.i 5 For there is one Godj and one mediatork between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,l 6 who gave himself as a ransomm for all men—the testimonyn given in its proper time.o 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lyingp—and a teacherq of the true faith to the Gentiles.
It is not often that I pray for my leaders...
Lord, I come before you now praying for the leaders first of all in our church. I ask that you would give them wisdom as they lead and guide us. I pray for the leaders in our community. I ask especially that you would give them wisdom in working with our homeless population. Lord, I pray for the leaders of our country. I pray for Mr. Harper. Give him much wisdom especially as he engages issues in the Middle East as well as issues of freedom of religion here at home. I surrender these men to you Lord.
I love the reality that God wants all men to be saved. My confusion at times is how to interpret Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 in light of this reality. In what sense does all powerful God predestine some to come to Him while still wanting all men to be saved?
What is the truth that He wants all men o be confronted with? Contrary to the popular position of pluralism, there is not multiple ways to God, but rather one, and that is through Jesus Christ...who else has "paid the ransom for our sins"? Thanks to God for His son, His only son.
It is not often that I pray for my leaders...
Lord, I come before you now praying for the leaders first of all in our church. I ask that you would give them wisdom as they lead and guide us. I pray for the leaders in our community. I ask especially that you would give them wisdom in working with our homeless population. Lord, I pray for the leaders of our country. I pray for Mr. Harper. Give him much wisdom especially as he engages issues in the Middle East as well as issues of freedom of religion here at home. I surrender these men to you Lord.
I love the reality that God wants all men to be saved. My confusion at times is how to interpret Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 in light of this reality. In what sense does all powerful God predestine some to come to Him while still wanting all men to be saved?
What is the truth that He wants all men o be confronted with? Contrary to the popular position of pluralism, there is not multiple ways to God, but rather one, and that is through Jesus Christ...who else has "paid the ransom for our sins"? Thanks to God for His son, His only son.
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